The first Springfield 1903 rifle

[RCS]

Found this photo of the early rod bayonet Model 1903 rifle

[oldfoneguy]

Yes it's cool but was a total failure on the Model 1888 Trapdoor Springfield. It boggles the mind that they would bring it back after having an extremely successful conventional bayonet setup on the Krag series of rifles. When Teddy Roosevelt broke the rod bayonet on a 1903 Springfield by repeatedly stabbing a white house column he wrote a letter to the Secretary of War dated January 4, 1905. In it he said, "I must say that I think the ramrod bayonet about as poor an invention as I ever saw. As you observed, it broke short off as soon as hit with even moderate violence. It would have no moral effect and mighty little physical effect.

[John Beard]

Yes it's cool but was a total failure on the Model 1888 Trapdoor Springfield. It boggles the mind that they would bring it back after having an extremely successful conventional bayonet setup on the Krag series of rifles. When Teddy Roosevelt broke the rod bayonet on a 1903 Springfield by repeatedly stabbing a white house column he wrote a letter to the Secretary of War dated January 4, 1905. In it he said, "I must say that I think the ramrod bayonet about as poor an invention as I ever saw. As you observed, it broke short off as soon as hit with even moderate violence. It would have no moral effect and mighty little physical effect.

In the mid to latter 1800's with single shot rifles, bayonet combat was commonplace. With the advent of long range magazine repeating rifles, the bayonet took on a secondary role in combat. So Army Ordnance was somewhat justified in downsizing the bayonet. Another critical factor which came into play is that most personal combat gear was transported on foot or on horseback. So weight reduction was an extremely critical factor. And Springfield Armory went to great lengths to reduce the weight of the M1903 rifle. And again, downsizing the bayonet was somewhat justified.

I don't disagree with Teddy Roosevelt's criticism of the rod bayonet. But most complaints and disagreements have two sides. And now you have the other side.

J.B.

p.s.,

If you were told that you had to march 20 miles per day for the next several weeks carrying a full load of combat gear, that rod bayonet versus a knife bayonet would look very attractive.

[MAC702]

If you were told that you had to march 20 miles per day for the next several weeks carrying a full load of combat gear, that rod bayonet versus a knife bayonet would look very attractive.

Depends, do I have another knife?

[ssgross]

Despite what others might say about the bayonet being outdated, it's still very useful kit for the intended purpose affixed to the business end of a rifle. While running convoy security in Iraq, slowed to a crawl in every small town by throngs of people, they would swarm our vehicle and grab at everything, even muzzles pointed right at them. Stay calm and fix bayonets was the order. No one came within 10 feet after. I doubt a rod bayonet would have had the same effect.

[Bob Womack]

Mmmm...

Rick Rescorla at Ia Drang...


Bob

[oldfoneguy]

I don't disagree with Teddy Roosevelt's criticism of the rod bayonet. But most complaints and disagreements have two sides.

If you were told that you had to march 20 miles per day for the next several weeks carrying a full load of combat gear, that rod bayonet versus a knife bayonet would look very attractive.

John in all honesty if we're talking about adding a couple of ounces to have an efficient and effective tool added to my kit as opposed to a bad design that will surely fail when needed the most I'll add the weight. That is given the choice of course which really doesn't happen in the military.

[RCS]

The French bolt action MAS 1936 used a spike bayonet stored under the barrel. besides WW2 and post WW2 Indo China and Viet Nam, this spike bayonet lasted a long time as well as the rifle.

The French Lebel 1886/93 used a cruciform bayonet best described as a long tapered spike bayonet that was carried by the individual. Used from 1886 to end of WW2

The French did use some bladed bayonets on carbines early in WW1 but obliviously did not favor the bladed bayonet

[browningautorifle]

in all honesty if we're talking about adding a couple of ounces to have an efficient and effective tool added to my kit as opposed to a bad design that will surely fail when needed the most I'll add the weight.

Agreed John, I did enough humpin' stuff to know the weight doesn't matter. You get to hump it.