Australian P14 Snipers, or Rifle No 3 Mk I* (T)

[22SqnRAE]

A very wise choice 22Sqn........... at least you asked the questions first and covered all bases and by doing so have saved yourself a lot of hard earned cash. There is nothing worse than seeing folk convincing themselves they have a rare example when everyone else is trying to be as diplomatic as possible and tell them what they do have is not what they think they have......... these are the kind of items that do a few laps of the fairs etc, then are sold in the auction.

Thanks BD6, you're right about the need to ask, test, query. I did some more detailed research, and found the story behind the rifle was probably valid. But as there was no proof offered, the asking price was unsupportable. I'm learning that as a collector, patience and perserverence is equal to detailed knowledge!

[harry mac]

The original selection of Winchesters for conversion is a bit of a mystery to me, since AFAWK there was no inherent superiority in their product over Remington Illion and as is pointed out in "The U.S. Enfield" by I.D.S., the American Expeditionary Force actually requested that no further Winchester rifles be sent to France in 1918,
:

The only reason I can see for their insistence on Winchesters for conversion to snipers (and it's only a theory), is that, if I remember correctly, the first shipments of rifles apparently came from Winchester, so the sniper rifles were probably initially selected from those. Thereafter, once the interchangeability issues became apparent, they insisted on Winchesters so that at least all the sniper rifles could share common components.

[lmg15]

Found this thread while looking for something else, but maybe worth providing some clarity on some of the theories presented so far. Reading between the lines in a recent Gunboards post, this post may have been the basis for some of the comments therein.

The gist is that Remington No,3 rifles appear to have had some work done on them at Lithgow to convert them to No.3(T). The jury is still out on that, but only one plausible example has been found purportedly at the Lithgow SAF collection back room.

What can be said with certainty is that Australia received one third of the total P14(T) production (668 of 2001) in the early 1920s. These appear in the official Small Arms Returns between the wars. That may be surprising to many that such a large number and proportion of total production ended up in Australia. But alas, this is in black and white. Such rifles were marked with the small /I\ inside a D mark on the left side of the receiver ring, and on the right side of the butt.

It would appear that at least 247 of the Australian issued No.3(T)s were issued to the 2nd Military District, and were marked D/I\D over 2 over the rack number. The rack number was positioned such that it formed a prefix to the existing serial number on the RH sight protector. Rack number and serial number are separated by a "."

eg,

D/I\D
2
247.191511

It is likely that the bulk of the rifles were issued to NSW (2nd MD) and Victoria (3rd MD) which were the most populous states.

The theory that the D/I\D over 2 marks were put on Lithgow converted No.3(T)s is not borne out by any evidence. In fact, it is clear that the serial number font is identical to the standard PPC set up rifles, and the rack number is in a different font applied later by the 2nd MD.

The only evidence I have seen to link Australian production to No.3(T)s is a spare Pattern 1918 scope made by AOC in 1944. Identical to the scopes fitted to the No.1Mk.3H(T), the only difference is that the rear mount is set further back against the ocular cone to fit the No.3 rifle. It appeared that the rear mount was placed there in the first instance rather than being moved aft at a later stage that would leave traces of solder and disrupted blueing. On the face of it, it would appear that defective or lost PPC scopes may have been replaced by AOC scopes, but fitted to original PPC set up No.3(T) rifles.

I have also seen an original No.3(T) rifle fitted with a US M84 scope in original Patt 1918 scope mounts. While one could theorise that it was a field replacement of a broken 1918 scope, I think it was done well post WW2.

Without some additional info, the best light I can put on Australian converted Remington No.3 snipers is some experimental tinkering at the SAF.

[Promo]

I knew you'd search the thread over here too, that is why I mentioned it on GB . Thanks again for your opinion and the summary.


Just to make sure I understood correctly: the 668 that went to Australia were ALL marked with the D and broad arrow in it on the right side of the receiver. Exclusively those which were issued to the 2nd Military District received the additional inventory number on the right side of the receiver too. Would you mind telling me based upon what you can do the attribution to the 2nd Military District?


The M84 scopes were standardized in April 1945. I therefore highly doubt there is any chance at all that it could had been an official issue, other than maybe a prototype.


PS: How comes that you btw specifically mention REMINGTON in context with "Australian converted No. 3 Snipers", and leave out Eddystone as well as Winchester?

[Terry Hawker]

D/I\D
2
247.191511

A bit of a correction is in order, at least as far as the example cited is concerned. It is not marked, "D /l\ D over 2" as mentioned, but the reverse - " 2 over D /l\ D".

Also, lest there be any confusion, No. 247 is a Winchester product.

The only reason I am certain these points are facts, rather than speculation, is because this rifle has been sitting in my safe for the last 19 years.

Cheers,

Terry

[Seaforth72]

My Patt’14 Mk.I* W (T) 248.191781 is sequential in its New South Wales, Australia “rack number” to Terry’s 247. Mine, original Winchester serial number W191781, is now complete except for fitting the mounts I have and obtaining a Model 1918 scope and the rings to mount it

In 1918, the British added sniper scopes to 2,000 or 2,001 Patt’14 MkI* W rifles, almost certainly to (F) Fine sight sniper rifles. The scopes were usually the Periscopic Prism Co.’s Model 1918. The original Winchester factory serial number (e.g. W191781) was covered by the front mount for the sniper scope. As a result the British marked the serial number on the right side of the rear sight housing, but omitted the “W” prefix. Reportedly 688 of these rifles went to Australia during and just after World War I according their inventories, with this one going to the 2nd Military District. The highest prefix 2MD serial number noted so far is 260.198841 owed by my friend “Sqwan”, also in Canada. Both of ours have the early single D with /|\ inside (pre-circa 1926 Australian ownership mark) as well as the 2 over the D/|\D (post 1926 approximately Australian ownership mark).

The markings as shown below where the Australian 2 Military District number 248 has been added in front of the relocated British serial number 191781, separated by a period.

2
D /|\ D
248.141781

Confusion arises as some No.3 Mk.I* rifles converted to sniper equipment included the “W” prefix on the relocated s/n position on the rear sight housing. My study of the serial numbers shows that these all appear to be part of the Irish contract for 79 rifles in the 1930s for what by then was by then known as the No.3 Mk. I* (T). These Irish sniper rifles were never Patt’14 Mk.I* W (T).

The 421 rifles converted to sniping equipment in 1940-1941 by Alex. Martin in Glasgow, were the model No.3 Mk.I* (T) A. The original serial number on these was not repositioned as it was not covered by a scope mount. The rear sight and its housing were removed and replaced by a simple peep sight. On my matching example, the serial number is repeated on the left side of the scope mount. An Aldis scope is permanently attached to the mount and the mount with the scope was supposed to remain on the rifle. These too were never known as Patt’14 Mk. I* W(T) A as the conversions were done about 14-15 years after the model names had changed for the rifles.

A special thank you to those who have helped me to understand the story of these snipers - Ian Skennerton, Milsurps.com hosts and participants, Roger Payne, John Taylor, Brad Hedges, Warren Wheatfield, Terry Hawker etc.

[Promo]

The 421 rifles converted to sniping equipment in 1940-1941 by Alex. Martin in Glasgow, were the model No.3 Mk.I* (T) A. The original serial number on these was not repositioned as it was not covered by a scope mount. The rear sight and its housing were removed and replaced by a simple peep sight. On my matching example, the serial number is repeated on the left side of the scope mount. An Aldis scope is permanently attached to the mount and the mount with the scope was supposed to remain on the rifle.

Just as a small addendum/correction: while the Aldis scope seems to be the most common scope to be found on these Alexander Martin of Glasgow No. 3 Mk.I* (T) A sniper rifles, there are plenty other scope variants to be found on this mount too. It seems that it was used whatever was at hand from WWI stock. The Knowledge Library entry for example also shows a Watts scope -> https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...A-Sniper-Rifle)

[Surpmil]

Skennerton mentions in TBS that there was discussion after WWI of putting into store for possible future use the (presumably) Aldis No.3 and 4 scopes removed from broken up SMLE sniper rifles. He writes of it as though it was done, but it is clear from what was fitted to the Alex Martin P14s that in fact no such provision was made, or none persisted until WWII.

There are for example a good number of No.3 and 4 Aldis scopes about clearly fitted up on sporting rifles by the gunmakers during the 1920s and 30s, which could hardly have been the case had they all been put into store after WWI, unless some bright spark subsequently decided to dispose of them.

In fact given the preponderance of Aldis No.2 and PPCo. scopes on the Alex Martin rifles, and even reportedly some German WWI era scopes, probably all that was available for Alex Martin was the dregs that the gunmakers had not yet used on sporting rifles, as being inferior to the No.3 and 4 Aldis. The German models were of course as good or better, but in the interwar period still a bit "politically charged" for most gun trade customers no doubt(?)

The number of rifles converted was very likely dictated by the fact that only 421 scopes could be found in the hands or the gun trade or in museums. (Recall that the situation was so desperate that even the Pattern Room collection was stripped of usable WWI sniping rifles at this point).

I was just looking through some clippings from the 1930s and there is one from the Observer in 1937:

"No Instructors:
To take one instance only, there are to be in each rifle battalion seventy snipers armed with special rifles fitted with telescopic sights. A reasonably good rifle exists in the P.'14, but so far as is known nothing at all has been done by the War Office in regards to the provision of telescopic sights, and there are certainly no men available to instruct the snipers."

The point being that had a store of suitable scopes been on hand they would probably been fitted to P14s in the 1930s.

That shortage rather begs the question of why so many of the No.3 Mk.I(T) rifles were sold to Australia, if indeed the sale was actually completed(?), as that would have left the British Army seriously under-issue. Was this a case of getting some quick cash in the early 30s and/or facilitated by the persistent pie-in-the-sky Ainley Rifle which they continued to fiddle about with well into 1938; the thinking being that a new sniping rifle was in the offing and so the No.3 MkI(T)'s could be disposed of?

[Promo]

For what I remember the overall contract was first 400, and the second one was stopped after 21 (whereas I'm certain that "1" at the end is the Pattern Room Sample, meaning that 420 were made for the field, and one to be kept as sample), and if that wasn't for another 400 too? Anyway, the result to this is that the rather obscure total production of 421 is not [only] a result of a lack of scopes, but due to a cancelled contract. This though might had been due to a lack of scopes, but also due to supply of No. 4 T sniper rifles (compare with dates when the units were completed).



The Knowledge Library entry on the Alexander Martin sniper rifles btw speaks of an initial order of 4000 sniper rifles -> https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...A-Sniper-Rifle)

[Surpmil]

For what I remember the overall contract was first 400, and the second one was stopped after 21 (whereas I'm certain that "1" at the end is the Pattern Room Sample, meaning that 420 were made for the field, and one to be kept as sample), and if that wasn't for another 400 too? Anyway, the result to this is that the rather obscure total production of 421 is not [only] a result of a lack of scopes, but due to a cancelled contract. This though might had been due to a lack of scopes, but also due to supply of No. 4 T sniper rifles (compare with dates when the units were completed).

The Knowledge Library entry on the Alexander Martin sniper rifles btw speaks of an initial order of 4000 sniper rifles -> https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...A-Sniper-Rifle)

Probably a typo for "400".

Is there a source for the cancellation of contracts, and if so, are reasons given?

Given that the deficit of scoped rifles persisted into late 1943, I doubt the contracts with Alex Martin would have been cancelled for any reason other than a lack of suitable scopes. The rifles that were converted we know from photos to have been used for training well into 1943, and presumably had some use in action as well (Tom Barker etc).

Why would the contracts be cancelled when the rifles were considered usable and scoped rifles were still in short supply overall?

We have no reason to think there were not sufficient P.14s on hand, though the 10,000 purportedly set aside for possible future sniper use may be as ephemeral as the purportedly put aside WWI scopes. Regardless, there were large numbers of them in store somewhere in the UK.

The conversions themselves were relatively cheap and easy and allowed collimation "by hand", unlike the No.4(T) pads which were machined in jigs after fitting to the rifle body and therefore required a dedicated milling machine - which Peter saw and inspected in H&H's London factory in 1988(?) Machine time is a valuable commodity in wartime.

Overall the impression I get is that sniping and sniping equipments were not a high production priority as the whole matter was not considered of much military value or importance.